does S-L from vancouver series fits with vertical integration graph?

[T-Slow]

Hi Number Two,

Thanks for responding! I'm not sure. I just wasn't sure if you could replace 3x(4x50) with 3x200 without changing the purpose too much. Apparently not!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this stuff. I thought that 3x(4x50) was considered SE of some sort in a Short to Long program, and that it would occur early on in a season (mid-GPP forward).

I'm just not sure what someone who only has two speed days should do. The first speed day seems pretty clear with 3x(4x50).

What should I do on the second? Would the starts, EFE's, AND 3x(4x50) be tolerable for a masters guy? It sounds like a lot of stress.

That is the essence of my question. I just wanted to know if replacing the short runs with longer runs would make it more tolerable without changing the purpose.

What would you suggest for the two speed day type guy?

Should I just perhaps shutup and split the work over 3 speed days until the limited recovery short runs are completed?

[NumberTwo]

Modify the work to allow for more recovery between longer sprints (i.e. 200's and 300's). A typical progression could be:

1 - 350 + 350 - r = 15 min
2 - 350 + 300 - r = 18 min
3 - 300 + 300 - r = 20 min
4 - 300 + 250 - r = 23 min
5 - 250 + 250 - r = 25 min
6 - 250 + 200 - r = 25 min
7 - 200 + 200 - r = 30 min
8 - 200 + 200 - r = 30 min

On the first speed day (assuming the above is Speed Day 2), your work could be 60 - 150 work (spread over the same period going from short to longer). As in Charlie's example, you could keep it over 60m sprints for the first 3-4 weeks, then extend it out from there.

[RB34]

He could also take Charlie Special End 1 work from the L2S graphs which starts at 2x300 resting 6-7mins and progress from that point.

Example:
2x20+1x30+2x300 6m (20)
2x20+2x30+2x300 9m (20)
2x20+2x30+300-250 11min (30)
3x30+60+2x250 14m (30)

If you are doing 3 x 200 with limited recovery, that's not really speed work - is it? So why would that type of work be inserted on a "speed day"? That would be considered intensive tempo work. It raises some concerns particularly if you are replacing 50-60m sprints with runs that are not remotely similar in purpose.

If you truly are doing a short-to-long program, then do a s-to-l program. If you are deciding to do a "mixed" program, you will have to rearrange the program to fit your arrangement. Taking Charlie's s-to-l program and "dropping in" different types of runs is not a good idea. I have used runs out to 200-300m, but with full recovery and treated as true Special Endurance runs. But in that arrangement, we were doing two pure speed days (i.e. 30-60m) and one SE day (200-300m).

It really comes down to what you are trying to achieve. Are you trying to build your ability to attain, improve and maintain your maximum velocity capabilities? Or, are you more concerned with building general endurance qualities and lactic tolerance?

[T-Slow]

Modify the work to allow for more recovery between longer sprints (i.e. 200's and 300's). A typical progression could be:

1 - 350 + 350 - r = 15 min
2 - 350 + 300 - r = 18 min
3 - 300 + 300 - r = 20 min
4 - 300 + 250 - r = 23 min
5 - 250 + 250 - r = 25 min
6 - 250 + 200 - r = 25 min
7 - 200 + 200 - r = 30 min
8 - 200 + 200 - r = 30 min

On the first speed day (assuming the above is Speed Day 2), your work could be 60 - 150 work (spread over the same period going from short to longer). As in Charlie's example, you could keep it over 60m sprints for the first 3-4 weeks, then extend it out from there.

Thank you for this! When I did a phone consult with Charlie about 18 months ago, he stressed that I should do a lot of general fitness work. I didn't get it at the time. I really am starting to understand now.

Given an 8-10 week GPP, and a 6-8 week SPP, and 8 week competition phase, I will write up 3 sample weeks (perhaps weeks 8, 12, and 16) and see what you think of the plan.

I'm not sure how to fit in the EFE's in a two speed day format, but I'll try!

Thanks again,

T

[Nikoluski]

Instead of trying to fit all the different training components you see in Charlie's example plans, perhaps you should focus on those you need to support your own needs as an athlete. Keep it simple and to the point to start with and see how it goes.

[TopCat]

Thanks for responding! I'm not sure. I just wasn't sure if you could replace 3x(4x50) with 3x200 without changing the purpose too much. Apparently not!

Think about all the differences here. Assuming a high level athlete who can accelerate say 40m before hitting top speed.

3x4x50m = 480m Acceleration, 120m upright. Highest top speed = 11m/s

3x200m = 120m acceleration, 480m upright.
Highest top speed = 10.5m/s (because you are accelerating on a bend)

That's a totally different training impact just from the types of muscle groups you are using let alone from a metabolic or neural perspective or even then from a technical perspective (200m practices running on a bend and under fatigue at the end, 50m practices acceleration and reaching top speed).

[TopCat]

Instead of trying to fit all the different training components you see in Charlie's example plans, perhaps you should focus on those you need to support your own needs as an athlete. Keep it simple and to the point to start with and see how it goes.

Hence CF's suggestion of doing fitness work... i presume. Great point Nik.

[T-Slow]

Hence CF's suggestion of doing fitness work... i presume. Great point Nik.

This is true, but EFE / FEF is pretty important for patterning proper technique at maximum speed, is it not? I don't have to do a ton of it, but I suspect it should be present, yes?

Can anyone give me some examples of what would qualify as a general fitness workout?

I've always worked Short to Long in the past, but as a taller masters guy who probably has a more limited ability to take CNS stress than most, I am interested in trying a mixed program.

The other problem was that I didn't plan ahead properly last year! So having these discussions prior to the start of the season rather than in the middle of it is terrific.

Think about all the differences here. Assuming a high level athlete who can accelerate say 40m before hitting top speed.

3x4x50m = 480m Acceleration, 120m upright. Highest top speed = 11m/s

3x200m = 120m acceleration, 480m upright.
Highest top speed = 10.5m/s (because you are accelerating on a bend)

That's a totally different training impact just from the types of muscle groups you are using let alone from a metabolic or neural perspective or even then from a technical perspective (200m practices running on a bend and under fatigue at the end, 50m practices acceleration and reaching top speed).

Thank you! I never would have thought of that if you hadn't pointed it out. That is totally different all right!

Thanks for your comments, keep them coming!

T

[T-Slow]

.....see above

[PhilG]

General fitness can be tempo and/or bodyweight exercises, press ups sit ups etc etc, med ball throws at low intensity (see gpp dvd for some but not all examples) weights - squats, bench etc etc. The first 2 can be performed during or after tempo or after a track session if you don't want to lift heavy.